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Staff Trace Estes
Moderator
Username: Staff_trace
Post Number: 76
Registered: 01-2010
| | Posted on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 11:33 am: | 
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In a excellent poem Stephen Bunch posted, I suggested a word--'clubbing"--that I thought would add to the piece's light and funny vein.
Earlier in the week, Pat Wallace Jones suggested a new ending to one of Mary MacGowan's poems. This suggestion was met with approval from some of the following commentors.
So, I guess my question is this:
If someone suggests something that will totally work in a poem you have written, should there be any qualms about incorporating that change?
Since it was offered in good faith to better your (the writer) poem--(the purpose of this workshop, yes?), are you allowed to lay claim to it?
If you do, what is the accepted form of noting it? Do you throw a footnote? Dedicate the poem to them?
I know these sound like silly questions, but I'm curious.
.
T
Be the person your dog
already thinks you are
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Stephen Bunch
New member
Username: Stephen_bunch
Post Number: 99
Registered: 01-2010
| | Posted on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 01:09 pm: |
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I think an acknowledgment for a specific suggestion to a specific poem is appropriate, in much the same way that I might give an acknowledgment in my mythical first book to a teacher who had had an influence on a larger body of work. A dedication in a poem is meaningless to almost all but the honoree, but it doesn't detract from the poem either. (If Iceman goes clubbing, you'll be there, Trace.)
"Entrapment is this society's sole activity...& only laughter can blow it to rags." (Edward Dorn, Gunslinger, Book III)
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Lisa Nickerson
New member
Username: Cvillelisa
Post Number: 40
Registered: 01-2010
| | Posted on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 09:44 pm: |
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Ezra Pound edited the Waste Land -- extensively -- Eliot dedicated the poem to him as "il miglior fabbro," the better maker.
I'm a thief and will steal anything anyone offers if it seems "meant to be."
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Staff Sherry OKeefe
Moderator
Username: Staff_sherry_okeefe
Post Number: 317
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 04:44 pm: |
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interesting topic, trace.
i think this is a case by case, poem by poem, suggestion by suggestion answer.
the clubbing suggestion adds to the humor of the poem and is rather unique. because the poet gave birth to the entire idea of the poem, the "clubbing" enhances the idea but does not create the idea. if it had been my suggestion to stephen, my own feelings would be that he could use that suggestion without any formal recognition to me. there are enough other great moments in the poem that the "clubbing" doesn't carry the poem.
trace, maybe you will remember a poem i wrote about a woman standing by a stone wall, trying to make her mind up about something. at the end, the woman tightens her shawl and returns to her hearth. you and k r both said that you'd rather she loosen her shawl. when i was writing the poem, it was a bit of a soul searching poem for me. the notion of opening up and embracing whatever life brings was the answer to what i was trying to resolve in the poem. so i changed one word in the poem, but it made all the difference in the poem. outside of this workshop, i talked with a friend who is rather monklike. he too talked to me (in depth) about loosening the shawl to life. the poem took on a life of its own as the more i talked with people (nonpoets), the more i listened to others explore how each person bears up in life. i present this example of how someone's suggestion gave more depth to the poem (but, trace, when it was published, it was not dedicated to you or k r or the monk or my daughter or any others who talked with me about this one word).
to add to this conversation, sometimes a simple word or two inspires me to write a poem. an example- a friend posted a note in facebook. i remarked that it was rather poetic. she said she couldn't think of a way it could fit in a poem and "gave me" the phrase (funny about swords). eventually a poem came from that but the phrase turned to "serious about swords". in this case, i like what lisa said in the last line of her post.
Sherry O'Keefe
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Staff Christine Potter
Board Administrator
Username: Staff_christine_potter
Post Number: 283
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 04:46 pm: |
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I think the place for an acknowledgment like that is in the dedication of a book or a group of poems, not an individual poem, probably. And I think anything suggested in workshop is suggested for exactly the purpose you describe: of making the poem better. The author is still the one who decides to incorporate the suggestion--or not. I never have had any qualms about using and publishing work in which other folks have made edits, additions, or small changes.
Chris
Christine Potter,
head moderator, The Gazebo
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Staff Trace Estes
Moderator
Username: Staff_trace
Post Number: 88
Registered: 01-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 06:20 pm: |
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Just for disclosure sake:
I, in no means, ever want Stephen to thank/dedicate me about anything.
This topic had been on my mind recently.
Sherry, I remember that poem!
T
Be the person your dog
already thinks you are
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Stephen Bunch
New member
Username: Stephen_bunch
Post Number: 102
Registered: 01-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 07:03 pm: |
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Thanks for letting me off the hook, Trace. Oh, did I say thanks? Fuhgeddaboutit.
"Entrapment is this society's sole activity...& only laughter can blow it to rags." (Edward Dorn, Gunslinger, Book III)
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Staff Richard Jordan
Moderator
Username: Staff_richard_jordan
Post Number: 212
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 07:48 pm: |
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Trace,
I agree with Chris' take.
Rich
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Staff Sherry OKeefe
Moderator
Username: Staff_sherry_okeefe
Post Number: 319
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 08:11 pm: |
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that's cool, trace, that you remember the poem. the talk about the shawl has had a direct influence on my non-poetry reality. how does one go about one's life thanking people for helping me rethink my shawl, eh? thank you.
Sherry O'Keefe
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Staff Colin Ward
Moderator
Username: Staff_colin_ward
Post Number: 28
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 10:40 pm: |
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Trace:
quote:If you do, what is the accepted form of noting it?
Well, I'd start by thanking them here. Profusely. Beyond that, though...
quote:Do you throw a footnote?
No, but I'm a "terms and times" purist when it comes to annotation.
quote:Dedicate the poem to them?
The poem would have had to have been inspired by something that occurred before the critique. Even though the suggestion has caused it to morph into a different work, a dedication seems a little off to me--like dedicating something to a cowriter. I'm not fundamentally opposed to dedications for poems--DPK dedicating "Beans" "to Isabella" was gutwrenching--but it seems more appropriate if limited to the theme or original inspiration.
Mind you, in the bloody unlikely event of anything I write being studied or the subject of an interview question, I'd certainly acknowledge every contribution, direct or indirect, to the poem. I'd certainly buy the critic a drink when next we meet.
-o- |
Edmund Conti
New member
Username: Edmund_conti
Post Number: 82
Registered: 01-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 11:37 pm: |
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Gordon Lish once edited a magazine called "The Quarterly." He accepted a poem of mine and completely rewrote it and then published it before I had a chance to dedicate it to him. Actually it was just a one-word poem and he deleted that one word. The question is, what do I do if I ever have it reprinted? |
Mike Harrell
New member
Username: Marrell
Post Number: 83
Registered: 01-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 10:24 am: |
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Ed,
If you publish it in a magazine that no one reads, you shouldn't have a problem.
Best,
Mike |
Melanie L Huber
New member
Username: Melanie_l_huber
Post Number: 134
Registered: 01-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 07:21 am: |
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*cough cough*
“Immature poets imitate, mature poets steal.” – T. S. Eliot ...
and
"Good Artists Borrow, Great Artists Steal" (attributed to Picasso. Which he prob. stole from Eliot.)
Not advocating theft of anyone's work but surely as many images/phrases have become cliche' what is being written must have been written before so the question really should be...How do you make it "new?" I don't think in a workshop environment you should expect to take credit for giving advice when an author decides to use your advice because it IS a workshop for the express purpose of getting input no? And also the decision to use a suggestion or not is up to the author, who is the ultimate creator of poem. Can there be more than one creator of a poem? No. Unless it is collaborative effort agreed upon at the conception of the idea of the poem as a "collaborative" work. Can there be more than one voice, one perspective in a poem, well of course! That's as it should be.
Why not take a line from Ezra Pound and turn it on its head to start a new poem of your own? Why not allude to an image from wasteland? How can you write poetry and NOT "steal" something (an idea, thought, image, metaphor, simile, whatever) from something else?? |
Mary MacGowan
New member
Username: Marymacgowan
Post Number: 476
Registered: 01-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2011 - 09:45 pm: |
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hi all. i just found this thread. i don't remember, at the moment, what ending pat wallace suggested for one of my poems - but trace asks an important question.
here's how i figure it. the process of workshopping belongs to the writer of the poem being workshopped.
i give suggestions, lines, phrases and i also take suggestions, lines, phrases. it's a glorious process and a generous give and take. if a poet doesn't want to freely give away ideas or suggestions, then they shouldn't be in a workshop.
sorry i've been "away" - i miss all you!
mm}
www.morningglorythecd.com
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